Basic Civil Rights V. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints – Part 2
Here is an account of what took place in my previous post from one of the individuals that was at the receiving end of the arrest.
Written by Derek Jones:
My boyfriend and I were walking home from the Gallivan Center concert series and naturally had to walk down the pedestrian mall (it was a direct path to our house and we have walked it many times together). We were holding hands.
Matt paused to say something to me and hugged and kissed me.
At that moment, several LDS church security guards came up to us and asked us to leave because we were being inappropriate.
Matt moved in closer to me and put his arm around me and asked the security guards loudly “what are we doing wrong?” We were obviously annoyed that they singled us out, especially since we were just passing through and not spending considerable time there. And there were no other people on the easement that we could see.
At this point they said that they wanted us to leave because of the public display of affection and that they do not allow any sorts of public displays of affection on the easement whatsoever. This especially irked the both of us because having walked through on a frequent basis (we often walk to work through there) and every time I have been through there are either marriage ceremonies going on, young mormon [sic] couples cuddling in front the fountain, hugging, holding hands, etc.
Matt then tried to get them to admit they were singling us out because they just didn’t approve of “gay” public displays of affection, baiting them into revealing their bigotry.
As all this was going on, several more security guards began showing up. I didn’t make an actual count but I would guess about 10 security guards were now surrounding us.
One of the security guards then got in Matt’s face and expressed very forcefully that “we (meaning straight people?) don’t come to your house and make-out on our property.” At this point Matt called him on his [expletive deleted] and mentioned that every time he has been through, he’s seen brides and grooms, couples holding hands on the pavement etc.
The security guards then changed their strategy and went the route of telling us that the easement is privately owned by the church and they can basically kick-out anyone they deem being offensive or inappropriate. This is technically true, but at the time I thought that it was a public easement and they had no rights to kick us out for holding hands (I didn’t really follow the controversy back in 2003 when the City ended up caving into the Mormon Church’s request to make the easement private property).
At this point they then split us up and forced me onto the ground on my stomach. They put my face against the pavement and handcuffed my hands behind my back. They then did a search and took everything out of our pockets. They did the same to Matt, although he resisted (not violently) and they weren’t able to get him on the ground because he’s a big guy and it took four or five of their guys to get him handcuffed. Matt remembers asking “what are you doing? Why are you doing this?” Then Matt launched into them verbally, telling them that they were hypocrites and did not have the authority to be arresting us. Matt never threatened them, nor was he ever violent. He even explicitly told them that we were not being violent and that handcuffing was completely unnecessary. Neither of us are violent people. We were just trying to get them to have a civil conversation with us about the real reasons they wanted us to leave. Matt then asked if what they are doing was legal. The security guards tried to claim that they were the cops. One of them even pulled out a fake badge and said he used to be a cop.
Matt then asked where the real cops were and they then said we could either leave, or they would get the cops. While we waited for the cops to arrive, the security guards kept trying to take pictures of us with their digital cameras. They also tried to accuse us being intoxicated although we were not. I admitted to have A beer at the gallivant, but that was hours before.
The cops finally showed up and talked to the church security away from while we still sat in cuffs. The police then escorted off the easement and took off our cuffs. We answered their questions and the one cop tried to shame us by pointing out we had been drinking, at which point Matt said “of course I have been we were at the Gallivan and took the responsible route by walking
home.
The cop then dropped that line of attack that [sic].
The cops then issued us both citations for trespassing and let us go.
Update: Some of the commenters seem to be under the impression that I, as author of this blog, was one of the victims of the preceding incidents – I wish to clarify that I am simply reporting the information as I have received it from the two directly. It is for this reason that I have not answered what I plan to do because I have no direct connection to the case – other than the fact that people I know and care about have been directly affected by it. My appologies for any confusion.
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[...] was detained by security and handcuffed for a kiss on the cheek on church property. The story is told from the horse’s mouth (hat tip MoHoHawaii), and was covered in the paper here. As a follow-up, we have a partial [...]
In 2003, when the debate about the entire issue was raging, this was exactly the type of thing everyone was assured would never happen.
I am not really surprised. If anything, I am surprised it took this long for something like this to happen.
A few thoughts.
First off, it’s private property even if it is largely publicly accessible. Any private property owner retains the right to eject someone engaging in behavior they find objectionable. (See also: street preachers.) The two gentlemen were not being kicked out for being gay; they were being kicked out for same-sex PDAs. An action, not a state of being. Anyone who would expect otherwise is living in some kind of alternate reality.
It’s also a mistake to try turning it into some kind of confrontation by being defiant. Baiting the rent-a-cops (bullies with a fake badge and a chip on their shoulder from a lack of any real authority) is just plain stupid. It’s hard to defend stupid.
And that said, I hate over-zealous security guys with visions of last night’s episode of Cops dancing in their heads. Getting someone on the ground and cuffing them is definitely over-reacting, but so it trying to make some kind of social or political stand in front of a bunch of $10/hr hired muscles.
I don’t see that there’s a clear-cut “right party, wrong party” thing going on here. It’s just a question of who’s out-douchebagging who. In this case, the security guards “win”.
It is private property. At the point they were asked to leave and didn’t is enough to constitute trespassing. However, if the officers are not immediately available, then the trespassers cannot be legally detained until the police arrive, if trespassing is the only citation (public intoxication is subject to detention, but the criteria weren’t met).
A requirement for Church Security employment is POST certification. However, I’m fairly sure they do not constitute a police force (especially given they needed SLPD to issue the citation).
I would be countercharging assault and especially impersonating an officer.
I feel terrible that this happened. What a disgrace. As a Mormon, I just want to say that Derek and Matt can come to my house and make out on my property any time they want.
The Main Street sale was a mess of huge proportions. I avoid the area when I can, but since it’s a big chunk of downtown and used to be a major through street it’s sometimes very difficult to do that without adding extra blocks to your walk in order to detour it. When I was working downtown and had to get to my kid’s school I basically had to cut through the plaza – to not do so would be to add several minutes which I didn’t have. Cursed the sale every time I had to go through it. Also cursed it every time I had to drive from west to east on North Temple, as the lack of a street that used to be there added to a lot of congestion that got diverted up into the Avenues.
Guess that’s my long way about to get to my point which is: the sale and purchase of a public thoroughfare like Main Street means that many people will need to cross the area, and those people shouldn’t have to be knowledgeable about Mormon standards and doctrine in order to do so. This couple just acted like a normal couple and shouldn’t be punished for that. At the very least, prominent signs should be posted, but it really should be gated off from the public like Temple Square since it really isn’t a public space — and the rest of us will just have to suffer with the detours. Thanks, Corridini and SLC Council of 1999, for your shortsightedness that we will continue to pay for as residents of SLC.
Two words: eminent domain. Force the church to sell it back, make it a public park, and then this shit won’t happen anymore.
I think a major issue here is that it’s a “pseudo-public property”. While it gives the appearance that anyone is welcome at any time, it is still under control and advisement of a private authority. However, according to Keith Barton and Associates it seems as though there is little defense for the case of Trespassing:
http://www.keithbartonlaw.com/types-of-cases/criminal-defense/Theft-Offenses-Against-Property/UT/Trespass.html
Clearly the LDS Church needs to sell the property back to the state or fence off the area and post who is welcome and the rules for those who are allowed to enter.
Whenever anyone in authority (or feels they have authorty) come up to me I tend to turn on my cellphone recording to make sure everything is heard, which has helped me in court quite a few times, even with traffic tickets.
No private citizen has the right to place their hands on another if they are not being threatened! I would have yelled lawsuit over and over once they had me cuffed on the ground.
I remember when I was a very closeted BYU student and heard about this public easement debate. Mayor Rocky Anderson put up a good fight, from what I hear. Sadly, there’s only so much he can do in the face of the Mormon church’s deep pockets and local political weight.
I’m surprised that so many of the previous commentators here absolutely miss the point of the article.
What’s at stake here is not Eminent Domain, or public vs. private property with regards to our rights (although those are issues rarely discussed in this community); the real issue is the bigotry and hate-mongering played out by yet another group of imbeciles in the name of the LDS Church and every member of that community. Maybe it comes as no surprise to some that this would occur, but are we to leave it at that? And if you are one of the few non-homophobic Mormons out there, is it really enough to just apologize for the actions of a “few” in order to relieve some of your guilt of knowing you will never take a stand on sunday in front of your homophobic faithful?
Mormons are now, and have always been, openly Hostile to the gay community. Why not let’s take back Main Street. I propose a gay sit-in, and then we can see how many rent a homophic cops it takes to try to take down a community
Sounds like you and your partner were subject to illegal search and detention. Even with cops you should not be able to be searched without consent. Might be a subject for a human rights lawsuit.
How sad, how very sad this sort of thing still happens. I recently moved out of the state of Utah. I felt the oppression of this state, and the confusion of Church and State that still takes place was more than I could handle. Yet I came back for a visit, homesick thinking maybe I made a hasty decision. This simple story explains to me yet again why I find it hard to tolerate the injustices that take place in this State. I guess you could say that the negativity of those that are self righteous is part of what drove me out, and yes I’m sure they are happy that it did.
There really is life outside of Utah, people who take freedom seriously and are educated enough to know that Religious freedoms and rights do not trump the rights of a human soul. I ache inside thinking that this sort of thing still takes place when there are other horrific events taking place in our world today. I’m sure there are two distinct stories taking place here. But lets face it, if there wasn’t so much prejudice against “one loving another” in their own God given way this sort of thing would not have happened in the first place.
As long as there are haters of choice there will be those that rebel against such hatreds. It’s a simple way of life, one that will never change. Call it a religious belief but actions speak louder than words and I’m sure what those two men felt from the security officers was nothing more than a hate and disgust of their choices.
Where’s the LOVE?
Anthony,
Congratulations on getting “the point of the article”, however, you are clearly part of the “real issue.” Your comments are littered with stereotypes, they key ingredient in the bigotry-recipe. You are fueling the fire Anthony. Is every member of “that” community really racist and hateful? REALLY?
Do you really want me to apologize for the other Mormons in our community? Fine, I am sorry that Super Dell Shanzy is such a douche. I am sooooo sorry that Chris Buttars is such an ass. Is this really what you want to hear Anthony? Should every Catholic apologize for every Priest that molests a young boy? Should every white man apologize to every black man? Should every German apologize to every Jew? REALLY? Mormons, meaning all Mormons, are openly hostile to the gay community? REALLY? You know what I hate more than a racist Anthony? A hypocrite.
It is very sad that security has a different point of view. it is also very sad when others need to use drunken profanity at security to “prove” a point. Tolerance is a two way street. I hope you fine one that is not called an einbaunstrassa.
Definitely them taking things out of your pocket is very troubling. I think you have a good case for a lawsuit there if for nothing else. And yes, had you been a male-female couple, they would not have singled you out. Had they not detained you, you wouldn’t have been on the property for much more than a few more seconds. Very short-sighted on the Church’s part. This story is starting to get picked up Nationally.
I also feel that you most definitely have a lawsuit, even though the mormon do-gooder cops did nothing about the assault, illegal search, illegal detention, and violations of civil rights,
You were more than willing to leave the property and questioning a guard’s actions cannot be interpreted as an unwillingness to leave or an act of violence.
I believe that there is a good case to sue the church and the specific guards on duty for a number of things, but don’t get a mormon lawyer.
I am a christian, and I think that if I were treated the same way, I might have ended up in jail myself.
As far as I know there are no laws that protect a security guard from using violence except when protecting themselves or others from violence.
If a security guard touched my wife, they would probably have found themselves on life support before I was done.
Sad to see that the blatant hostility that has always existed in mormonism against all those who are not mormon are still being tolerated today and manifested.
My thougths are sue, sue, sue, and maybe even try to get a change of venue outside of a mormon community, like in the read world somewhere.
and to Dustin above, every member of your church is GUILTY when they don’t take a stand against this kind of crime. Yes DUSTIN, you are guilty by association and you are guilty for doing nothing about this open hostility.
I am a christian, and what I see your members ignore and what your church does makes me sick.
Thank God I belong to the true church though, the one that exists in every true believer everywhere instead of a cult.
The bible is so true when it says (by their fruits ye shall know them).
You would have to be blind to see the rotten fruit on this tree.
another word of advice, use the media all that you can.
Although I do not agree with homosexual lifestyle, my faith tells me that you have every right to choose however you want to live without my involvement.
What happened to the both of you is absolutely pathetic and demonic and has nothing to do with christianity or Christ.
Peace and Love.
@Pro Truth and others.
I allowed these posts to go up because many of your points were valid and added to the conversation – however (and this goes for all commenters) I am not interested in turning this conversation into a “Mormons are a crazy cult” or “I belong to the true church” discussion.
This is a legal issue that weighs the rights of the individual against the rights of the property owner and the obligations of the state. This issue is further exasperated by the fact that the land owner is the LDS Church and that the guards, allegedly, roughed up these two men.
Posts that are pure Mormon bashing are not welcome, and I strongly discourage you from posting them.
I am sorry if I came across as a mormon basher. I live in slc and have first hand experience of the intolerance that exists here.
Enough is enough with the mentality that is so prevalant from the state government to employers that exist here.
I hope that these two stand up for their rights.
Peace
The property these two men were on belongs to the LDS church, they were trespassing when they were asked to leave and chose not to. Sure you can say the rent a cops were wrong for singling them out, but that doesn’t matter, the LAW says these two gentlemen were trespassing when asked to leave and didn’t.
Are *ALL* Mormons bigots and hate mongers against gays? Sorry Anthony but you paint with a pretty big brush there, one that is certainly feeding into the very stereotype you profess to dislike.
Surely the guards could have shown more tolerance, but after all that has happened to this point concerning the prop 8 in California, surely you can see how two gay men showing public affection on privately owned property would possibly be interpreted as a swipe in the face of the LDS church, a calculated maneuver meant to dig?
I would hope that more tolerance will come from both sides, but in the end, in this case, the two men are going to get nowhere with this, they were trespassing, period.
Pro Truth,
You came across as a Mormon basher because you are racist. Just like Mormons who hate gays, you have jumped head first into this racist cespool.
What religion are you Pro Truth? have you stood up in your congregation and denounced every misdead done by your religions members? I associate myself with the LDS church, which does not preach hate. I dont associate myself with racists Mormons.
You are a hypocrite Pro Truth, just like Anthony.
How funny that these guys try to claim that they were victims. I witnessed the whole thing. First of all, these two gentlemen did much more then hold hands and kiss, they were completely all over each other. Second of all they were given ample opportunities to leave, these security guards told them politely they could stay on this easement as long as they weren’t all over each other. The two men turned things around quickly, they were drunk and completely obnoxious and rude to the security guards, cussing at them and calling them all sorts of names. That’s when they arrested them for trespassing not kissing. Funny how these two “victims” claim to be victimized, when in reality they were just picking a fight, and wanted some attention which they got.
The title of this post alleges a civil right was violated.
Which civil right was it? Where does the legal authority for this civil right rest?
Sometimes when people get upset they throw around words and phrases that are not applicable to the situation. This is one of those times.
You can allege that the incident was unfair, an over-reaction or poorly handled, but how can you argue that it was a violation of a “basic civil right”?
In the United States, private property owners can eject anyone at anytime for any reason from private property. That, in contrast to what the author of the post declares, actually is a legal – and very fundamental – right.
The LDS Security guards were acting like a street gang, not security guards. They should be arrested for kidnapping and assault. I don’t know what LDS promised the city to get control of the property but they certainly promised to make it available for public use and not to molest the public in it. Let’s face it: the LDS church has never had any scriptural basis for hating gays, it is merely a cynical convenience, and has no moral or theological basis whatsoever. As it says in Romans 13:10 “Love worketh no ill to his neighbour; therefore, love is the fulfilling of the law.” Indeed, LDS hate of gays is very recent and apparently driven by a political, not a religious, agenda.
I have been to temple square many times with my boyfriend and yes I am gay. Its a beautiful spot and I think we may have held hands before or kissed. We have never been asked to leave or were we obvious and in doing it for show. I truly believe these guys did more then just a little kiss and hand hold. I am sure they were doing it for attention and to prove a point. I wouldn’t show up to a Jewish synagogue and set up a pork hot dog stand and not expect them to have an issue with it. It’s about showing some respect for peoples property and beliefs. I would be equally disappointed if people were putting Marriage is between one man and one woman on their lawn without permission.
If the men were drunk and out of control, why were they not cited for public drunkness and disorderly conduct?
Living in Los Angeles, and knowing of the MILLIONS of Dollars of hateful support that the LDS recently spent to help pass Proposition 8 (their ads on TV here were loaded with OUTRIGHT LIES), I am pleased that this incident is now hitting the national news media. There is growing support from a majority of Americans for equal rights for gays, and hopefully this incident at minimum will make more Americans nationwide aware of what they are REALLY about.
Hate is unacceptable in this country, including the obvious hatred of gays by the Mormon Church. Just like the Scientologists, they are an evil cult of hate-mongers who use their vast influence and mega-money in an attempt to affect our politics and our laws, even outside of Utah. The people of SLC should take back that land under imminent domain.
As an LDS person I just want to say that I have no hatred for homosexuals. Yet I often feel hated by homosexuals. I don’t care what you do as long as you’re not breaking any law, you’re business is you’re business as long as it doesn’t affect me. People have a double standard. One day they’re pointing out (and rightly so) that hatred is wrong; and the next day a letter arrives to the Salt Lake temple with white powder threatening to be anthrax. Don’t lecture the LDS church about discrimination, we know a thing or two about it. And I’m not just talking about 150 years ago, I have had rocks thrown at me because I am LDS.
I feel really sorry for the mormon church…
One day they will move forward with the rest of the world…
I personally know Matt and Derek and they are both
reliable and incredible people..
Did they have the right to detain you with handcuffs? Or, would this be considered kidnapping?
Hey Dustin, before you ever try and blog again please look in a dictionary, the book works in alphabetical order, please look up the word racist, i mean your embarrassing me. Also it is much better to use your logic in an argument rather than your emotions. Cool off before you reply, you might have a chance at looking somewhat intelligent.
JA,
Im sorry, bigot. Please JA, enlighten me, what would you call it? You call it acceptable, because you are a bigot yourself.
Emotion? you mean like embarrassment? Please, JA, get your dictionary out and look it up. Its clearly the reason you were responding to what I had to say.
You also made no comment about this article. Did you even read it? What are you looking for JA? Some meaningless argument about the definition of racism? What is your point? You have no point!
You are a hypocrite JA, just like Pro “Truth” and Anthony.
The way these two have handled this is irresponsible in a truly shameful way. I have known Matt and Derek for a long time (Matt since the age of 15). Matt initially came out to me- and I was his roommate when he and Derek first began dating. When these events came to the fore, I was immediately skeptical. To be clear, I am neither Mormon, nor any fan of that church. However, Matt is a full-blown alcoholic who openly prides himself on being a manipulator (although he calls it “social engineering.”)
I think the left-wing community of Utah (myself included here) needs to look at events like this with a keen eye. We readily accept any report of church misbehavior because we want to call them the evil empire, but it doesn’t take a genius to read the reports and see what really happened. They were drunk, making a scene, refused to leave when asked, and argued with security and the police. It is reported as such in the paper and in the police report (posted here: http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site297/2009/0714/20090714_063104_templepolicereport.pdf)
All these two have done is manipulate the Utah gay community, creating greater animosity between the left and the church. Playing the “gay card” to either create a bigger scene or get out of personal responsibility is truly deplorable. They cried wolf, and let’s be honest here, the church DOES discriminate against gay men and women. But this is not an example of that. This is two rabble-rousers making a scene and using the animosity to their advantage. The more we allow ourselves to be hoodwinked by people like this, the more we on the left look foolish, and the less likely people are to listen to us. Matt and Derek should be ashamed of their unabashed exploitation of this social scene. We, as Utah liberals, should try to assess situations with reason, and in doing so, let ourselves be correct more often than not.